2007年10月9日星期二

旧浪潮论坛之:关注缅甸(一)

Yol:

我们能做什么

Dear wavers,
已经好多天了。缅甸已然成为一方让全世界都揪心的地方。
每天都在不同的朋友们的博客上看到对那个国度的关注。只是到今天,终于从旧浪潮这一整个礼拜的批判或者说调整中抽离出来的时候,在胡坤那里(也是第一个这样做的waver)看到声援entry的时候,看到格格留言说她和周书正讨论过这件事的时候,才感觉到特别的难过。 "关注现实"的旧浪潮,是不是过于忙于内部批判,而忘了抬头看世界。
旧浪潮强调政治中立,但这已然不仅仅是一个政治问题。正如同我作为一个基督徒,依然为那些僧侣祷告。
我也不知道我们能做什么。但是似乎我们不应保持沉默,抑或冷漠


Gill:

thx for the reminder. well...I guess one thing we are in an excellent position to appreciate is, as EU put it, this: "China is the puppet-master of Burma. The Olympics is the only real lever we have to make China act." But bear in mind that EU's interests in Burma are no comparison to those of China.
The source of the statement: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7018285.stm. (Additional comment: Though a piece of journalism it is, i think it nevertheless says a little truth -- about realpolitik, sth much more real than many other politics. And, if i may add, the Good would never profit very much from fighting a plain Evil because it is by nature inclined to fancy that every Evil is as plain as the present one that it recognises so mindlessly and dismisses so effortlessly.)

周书:

可以做的事情还是有的。
http://www.uscampaignforburma.org/index.html
这个网站上的what you can dostudent & community action提供了很多灵感。
即便我们没有办法改变什么,至少我们可以通过这些事情教育一下自己。
可以以"旧浪潮"的名义群发邮件,鼓励大家到上面那个网站和http://www.actionburma.com签字。

Cho:

Dear All,

I used to favor the Kantian view that, putting aside the intertwined interests embedded in international politics, benevolent intervention might seem too demanding a rule for states to comply with. Besides, there is also this notion of state sovereignty, which turns out to be too popular an excuse for political expediency.

However, the incident of Saffron Revolution is really compelling me to abandon this position. Perhaps the analogy cannot be recklessly drawn from personal autonomy to state sovereignty. One may reasonably retain a libertarian view on individual freedom, whereas in the case of state, which is more a community for its people than an entity in itself, a more paternalistic approach is needed. After all, human right is more justifiable to trump other weighty political considerations. In the realm of international politics, if we only admit states as actors, we may run the risk of creating an illusion of justice while turning a blind eye to the conspiracy of some states against their citizens.

But once the precedent has been established, it is also troublesome to notice that, since state sovereignty may be all-or-nothing, the concern for human right is vulnerable to contamination. Not to our surprise, it is already a sadly common phenomenon. Nevertheless, I suppose a paternalistic overreaction always does less harm than an indifferent connivance.

Yol:

十分感谢周书的分享
我自己会尽快整理并发在自己的各个博客/校内/facebook
建议下次内部沙龙以此为主题

Gill:

looks like I have to make my point a bit more explicit --

1. Wherever ones signs his name, as a protest against the Burmese Government, this is, as a matter of fact, useless. And useless he who signs his name knows it to be. A tyrant as good as any, the Burmese Govt won't care a damn; but it will probably thank you for the reminder of how important it is to wash the blood away asap.

2. There is however one thing that we, Chinese, can do, and that is not entirely hopeless: Protest against the Chinese Government. China's interference, if it does interfere, may or may not make a great difference; but surely it is one of the most persuasive intermediater the world is counting upon and, until now, vainly. And indeed, Burma is neither the first nor the last call for China's action: there is the on-going Darfur conflict, in which China is believed to be trading human rights for oil. Not to mention the incidents that are classified as our "internal affairs," only the number of which will make an average Burma campaigner bored.

3. I have no objection to joining a US campaign or whatsoever. But given 1 and 2 above, I would feel most uneasy if I were to channel my protest against the crime to a loudspeaker faraway, abroad, while My Govt at home is aiding the criminal by inaction. Ture, that if we stand up we may make a difference, if only to ourselves. But how we stand up makes a difference also. Standing up against Rangoon, you achieve absolutely nothing. Against Beijing, however, you are still highly likely to lose, but the chance of winning is not zero: Beijing, experienced, and having survived in peace, is more reasonable than its terrified Burmese counterpart; besides, it's a critical time for Beijing to give a positive impression to the world, having regard to the coming Party's Congress and the Olympic games. No matter what the chance, I suggest to you that a consistent campaigner should be against both.

Yet there is also this difference: Standing up against the Burmese Govt we are absolutely safe; while against the Chinese Govt, it seems we'd have to run a certain risk. And this risk I prefer to avoid. Having realised that, I almost cannot, in accusing the principal evil, get rid of the feeling that the decision of letting the accessory walk free is an decision unwittingly, unfortunately, and even ignobly, calculated.

浪潮论坛之:关注缅甸(二)

3 条评论:

Frank 说...

缅甸的存在和朝鲜一样,都是冷战时期留下的特定产物。不能说是中国一手造成的,但是和中国有莫大的关系。

我觉得中国政府是这样考虑的。目前中国主要的精力都在抓经济建设上,可能需要打的仗有一场,那就是台湾问题;除此之外,中国不希望有其他地方牵制自己的有限兵力。在这样的背景下,中国才希望缅甸、朝鲜这样可以拉拢的极权政府的存在。

二十一世纪就是中国和美国的较量,这点可以从美国和中国在满世界找油就可以看出些端倪来。其实相对美国,中国漫长的陆地国境本就是个潜在的威胁,这正是中国需要扶植亲中国的政党来控制某些国家(尤其是周边)的原因。这种肮脏的手法,美国用过,前苏联用过,无非都是为了自己的利益。

我反对这种处理方式,毕竟那是冷战的思维,所以觉得真正该反对的还是中国政府的支持。至于缅甸军政府,只是中国的傀儡而已,不足为dao。

殷守甫 说...

诵《仁王般若经》而已,佛国兴衰可知。

殷守甫 说...

“亚洲除了中国(政府)以外,所有国家都支持缅甸人民。”
——梵蒂冈官网,可是很遗憾,这次不是造谣了。

缅甸的背后是中国。
——一个签名的美国少年在bbs上留言,可是很遗憾,我是一个中国X年。

当以西方为首的不少国家借政局频频向缅甸施压之时,鲜有人注意到,缅甸政府正与邻国全力打击边境地区的各种犯罪,其中包括在中缅边境的赌场。
——今日(10月10日)新浪,我说什么呢

军阀混战的时候,龙云、卢汉有事都是退到缅甸的,因为对于他们来说,国境线以外却不是势力范围以外。这样的事情在西方,似乎《威斯特伐利亚条约》之后就不常见了。可是在亚洲的这一端,现代民族国家的边界还没有来得及崛起。第二次世界大战,蒋介石同志突然获得了一个职务,中缅印战区总司令。民国报界对此很是看重,因为在这片西方殖民者的势力范围上,中国领导人再次承担起了区域领袖的责任。蒋介石说:“让中国军队来独立防守缅甸”。知识界又以为民族霸气。于是一支支英雄的部队出征了。(其中一位随军记者叫黄仁宇,途中写下处女作;其中一位汽车兵叫殷海光,战争结束也没学会开车。)当然后来,中国易帜了。
汤因比戏谑:重要的年代都是连在一起的。58年国民党最后一次大规模支援盘踞缅甸的云南光复军;同年奈温将军崛起,出任看守政府;60年,中缅边境勘界警卫作战展开,人民解放军入缅。61年结束,收兵。62年3月奈温政变,三个月后中印边境自卫反击战在不远处打响。
伯里克利不是为了推销自己的整体才把舰队派到Corfu,雅典人已经望见西西里了。国共各自派兵是否也有着伯里克利的计划,就不得而知了。只是我听人说过一段“野史”:蒋介石担任中缅印战区司令时就知道了奈温,知道他反共,于是想拉拢他建立反共基地。须知此时国民政府昂山(昂山素季的父亲)已经通过联合国和美国对台施加压力,要求其撤兵缅北。奈温确实与国民党过从甚密,只是个中细节不得而知。但这个反共分子却是马基雅维里的好学生,最后导向中共,邀解放军入境,勘界剿匪。奈温是高明的,他在中缅边境问题上拿到了现实的好处,并且找到了一个可以依靠的大国。实地,外势通吃,已经是秀策的境界了。
中共这样选择,有其无奈。但是这却是一个无奈的宏大计划,一言蔽之:夹击印度。中国的智囊们绝不是像我一样意淫,实在也是不得已而为之。50年代末,西南边境的危机也是酝酿已久。1958年,中共在西藏废除农奴制,西藏起事(台湾的说法是,中共在西藏搞“大跃进”),达赖流亡,次年放弃“十七条协议”,开始漫长的西藏独立斗争,而第一方案,就是正常人类理智都会想到的,借兵印度。当年申包胥这样想于是成功了。到了60年代初,实是多事之秋。外与苏联交恶,内有三年饥馑。尼赫鲁蠢蠢欲动了。中共要稳定西南,就要联合巴基斯坦,尼泊尔,控制缅北,稳定西藏,如此才能力拒印度。上兵伐谋,其次伐交。那时,中共是没有力量把大量战略物资运往西南的,只有在当地寻找力量。大唐的策略,苏定方的杰作。于是中共决定选择与这个奈温合作。
62年,反共者奈温开始了缅甸特色的社会主义,高明的政治家总是见风使舵(据个人考证,这个当地特色最早是法共搞出来的)。如果奈温更加高明,也许我们会像记住穆沙拉夫一样记住他。(经验统计表明,支持军政府往往是饮鸩止渴,后患无穷。美国支持萨达姆就是一例。中国幸运地遇上了巴基斯坦,已经是奇迹了,于是有了现在奇迹般的中巴合作。事实上这个国家的民主运动同样声势浩大。只是少了些鲜血,少了些西方记者,而我们也就稍稍淡漠些罢了。)但是88年他失策了。虽然他推出了一个继承者丹瑞。他们应该知道,要控制政局就不能开选举,既然开选举就必须拿下,既然选举失败,即便改政体、去总理也不应相信暴力。不是因为暴力不善,而是因为暴力给西方世界以借口。这是政治。我是站在他们的幕僚的角度这样说的。
现在我要回到中国智囊了,因为从前沈丁力先生说,这是中国人的责任。穆沙拉夫刚刚赢了。似乎中国的这个盟友还能在危机中继续坚挺。只是缅甸岌岌可危了。中国需要缅甸。对于可能的南藏冲突来说,缅北是一个重要屏障和基地。对于未来石油战略来说,缅甸提供了中国海军进入印度洋的可能性。须知,印度的舰队就在安德曼群岛,而缅甸南部领土的延伸环绕着这个岛。中国的舰队总有一天是要进入印度洋的,因为中国的石油生命线依赖印度洋。于是必须力挺缅甸政局稳定,所谓稳定就是在西藏问题上对达赖的回复:“现状无需改变。”也许这个军政府坚持不了多久,但是,哪怕坚持到丹瑞政治生命自然结束(再过10年),也就为发展赢得了时间。
可是我也知道,我们今天是作为一个人带着一颗良心来关注缅甸的,而不是作为一个谋士带着计略来寻找买家的。我们作为一个人能做什么。公共知识分子首先不是收音机知识分子,时刻摘抄正在进行的不公正,也不是作秀知识分子,对每一不正义表现愤慨。在这一意义上,我是一个康德主义者:让我的思考我的哲学能替所有人恢复其为人的共有的权利。在具体的态度上,我不得不承认,我充满犹疑。他国内政在以下情况下应当可以干涉:即大规模人道主义危机出现的时候。这是沈丁力先生的原话,他还说,有一点,只要这样的情况发生,我们中国也应该去干涉。只是,好一个“大规模”的限定。似乎生命在数量面前又黯然失色了。

(我的身体在颤抖,我写不下去了,我需要调整和喘息。有机会再续。)